There was no holster involved. "It has a clear capacity to fire without the trigger being pulled under certain conditions," said Hilton's lawyer, Jeffrey Bagnell. TTAG talked to Bagnell, who told us that he wants it to be known that he is not anti-gun and doesnt want to see more gun control laws in this country. Let us look at the history of other consumer products. Thats SIGs term for a recall. Asked if the guns in these cases could have been mishandled, Villani responds, When I see videos of police officers getting out of their car and their weapon discharges in their holsters, nah, theres a problem with the gun. ABC then ran bodycam footage of a pre-upgrade P320 firing as a Michigan state trooper exited his patrol car in 2016 with no mention of the results of any subsequent investigation. I have been purchasing and using Sig firearms exclusively for over 40 years. Have you ever noticed that big trouble usually comes in groups of 3. (b) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. In the former case, you would need upward movement coming to a sudden stop to bump up the drop safety at the same time you imparted rearward momentum to the gun to try and move the striker. This guy had been working at the LGS for over a decade and never had an AD or ND, he was the strictest when it came to safety. Time will tell if no. JTF-2 is the only unit in. Sig Sauer's P320 is widely used by police departments across the country, and is a big seller in the civilian market, with about half a million sold nationwide. At least the Lion roars when he is hungry, the C.E.O smiles at you and when you turn your back he puts a knife right into it. The more someone touches, loads, clears, cleans, holsters, un-holsters, or otherwise deals with their firearm, the higher the statistical likelihood that complacence kicks in. There were a lot of changes. Police officers do NOT get a lot of training unless theyre doing it on their own time at their own expense. Third, Glock has had problems, too. Its pathetic how often these legal stunts work. They have hundreds of thousands of P320s in regular service now and, despite a search, we couldnt find a rash of reports of soldiers claiming their pistols are firing on their own. SIG P320s were just the start and the P365 isnt far behind. He takes your wallet and car and leaves the SIG. Im reading about a moron who wraps a loaded firearm in a cloth and stuff it in a gym bag, and other dumb behavior that tells me the weapon isnt the problem but the user. The weapon was out of battery when it fired.. . Dude, your story is THREE years old. Milwaukee Police Report Issues With Sig P320's Discharging By Tom Knighton | 11:30 AM on October 30, 2021 AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast Several years ago, there was an issue discovered with the. -You plan on getting rid of your P320, great! So your fanboy perjorative falls not only flat but false. Thats the American system at work in all its corrupt majesty. 3) If the sear fails, there is the drop safety in the way of the striker. You should always use a real holster, or carry it condition 3 or 4 if its off-body. It isnt the beginner woodworker who loses fingers. Ill go so far as to say the first batch of Sig P320s did nothing wrong. I dont know nothing about Sigs, I do know any gunm that goes off when I lay it on a table gets sold with a warning and I never touch that brand or model again. I would trust a hungry lion on the Serengeti plains of Africa more than I would a C.E.O. Yes, a lot of police officers only shoot when they have to for qual. Lastly, ship-wise I have to go with the TMP-era refit Enterprise, regardless of Captain. Or you would have to have enough slide play for the slide movement to physically disengage the sear and striker leg mating surfaces. Not much detail is provided in any of those other claimed incidents, but a few stand out. NO, SIG has a problem that they would rather fight in court. Right up front, the use of an ill-fitting/improper-for-the-gun holster instantly negates any idea of an unintended discharge being the fault of the design. Effectively: you must be this dumb to get this job. Such being the case, there very well may BE in inherent design flaw in the gun; We shouldnt just cast the thought aside as being beyond consideration and insist on blaming the problem on operator error.. Charlton, headquartered in Victoria, B.C., for comment on its original story, but neither responded. In my opinion, the only reason SIG would have done that is if they knew there was a safety problem with the original gun, otherwise they would not have done it., Scott says Harrison reviewed the claims in Officer Hiltons lawsuit and said, its unclear to (Harrison) what could now be causing misfires in the upgraded guns., Scott then asked Harrison if he believes the P320 should be removed from the marketplace. The design was incorporated from Bruce Grays trigger kit around the time of the original drop safety fix. That show with no Shatner-Kirk and only a Nimoy-Spock wouldnt have gotten past the first season. Contacted late Friday, a spokeswoman for special forces said the investigation is still ongoing and would not confirm the companys findings. Hey, Im sitting here staring at my P320, waiting for it to go bang! Some of the plaintiffs claim the pistol can fire without the trigger even being touched. 2) The p320 does have a half cocked notch. It somehow moved to the hinges of the desk. Harrison responded, No, I dont think the upgraded version should be recalled, in fact I think the previous version should be recalled so that everyone has the upgraded version.. The American manufacturer of the new pistols belonging to Canadas special forces claims the soldier wounded in an accidental discharge last fall was using the wrong holster for the weapon. Thinking its okay to wrap a loaded gun in a towel and toss it into a gym bag is what we get when departments refuse to hire candidates who score too high on IQ tests. This is why we now have back up safeties on garden tractors and riding lawn mowers. Everyone remember the video of the DEA agent shooting himself while explaining that he was highly qualified to carry a gun? 19 Feb 2021 Military.com | By Matthew Cox A former U.S. Marine and federal agent has filed a $10 million lawsuit against Sig Sauer Inc. alleging that his holstered Sig P320 -- a pistol. Sig Sauer's headquarters are located in New Hampshire at Pease International Tradeport. Fundamentally, the bits that the ambulance chaser claims are flawed function exactly the same way as a S&W M&P. So it never had a history of a potential valid claim for ambulance chasers to work off of. You need a lead that can be the lightening rod and not be afraid to make an ass of themselvesit give the watcher permission to take it seriously. https://apis.mail.yahoo.com/ws/v3/mailboxes/@.id==VjN-iN4Wr8P_P2lGU6m2M5Rd8F6tVxyeeWdzleA_0eUoKjB0wER5wbVU_ouLj3uKCvLmUWhjIv2uHVC2R0Wv8Q9VgQ/messages/@.id==AMxkWSMoHX4bYSzMKA0AINojDH4/content/parts/@.id==2/refresh?appid=YMailNorrinLaunch&ymreqid=ae6c4f7d-acdd-ffa3-1c80-d70000011c00. Too Many Accidents But now, P320 is the subject. Anyway there was one good thing to come from those movies, The USS Vengeance. There was nothing wrong with the Glock action, it was a training issue. there is no better. OR some gorilla with more brawn than brains ignored the 40lb trigger pull they suddenly had to break the tab. It takes time for any new platform to work the kinks out. I love when people call law enforcement officers highly trained. Most dont get more training than what they had in the academy unless they are getting paid time to train, or are going for something speciality such as S.W.A.T. Legal Penalties. Seems kind of like a Sig apologist article. As a result, the P320s were withdrawn from service, leaving the JTF-2 with their older P226s. I would rather play handball with the Devil himself because if you deal with the Devil he will tell you that you agreed to lose your soul for a big box full of millions in cash. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. This website has been messed up all week so that might be the problem in replying. I would trust the intelligence of a Gorilla in a zoo before any one in the Far Right. Finger on the trigger and muzzle discipline are sometimes unheralded. He said there has to be something wrong with the gun if this is happening to individuals with this amount of training, this amount of skill.. And it doesnt take too much Googling to find plenty of reports of LEOs suing the Georgia company as well (see here, here, here, and here for just a few). But it hardly indicts the P320 as a badly engineered weapon or that its worse than another brand. It upgraded its P320 pistols in October 2018, before the middle school incident, spokeswoman Amanda. Yes, its reliable, but no more so than most other major brands well known models. That wont last for long, the P320 (M17 AND M18) are already failing in the field. Too expensive to use their customers as beta testers. Glocks biggest problem is they havent innovated since 1985. A shame but then no one was hurt. So I give a ton of credit to Shatner for reading the reality of what it was and in essence, saving it. With the 320, the striker is in full-cock position, and held there through the operation of the trigger sear and the positive striker-blocking safety. So if, say, a person was to accidentally get shot through no fault of their own and need to sue, which specific cartridge/appendage combo would yield the most favorable least pain/permanent-damage : highest-payout ratio? First I have no problem with the Mk 25 or any other Sig thats metal. Google Keith Slatowski, is he lying also? LOL! Ironic that the trendsetters of yesteryear are trying to tear down the innovator of today because its Not perfected yet! and the Design isnt worked out!. They cant even make claim to doing a twice a year qual. I agree that Glock is sitting on their laurels and has been for decades. In 1974 if you bought a Colt 1911, you left the gun store and then immediately took it to your favorite gunsmith and said Make it work it with Super-Vels, please. You cant get away with that today. 3. Everyone remembers the problems the Beretta M9 had, but it got sorted and they went on to serve over 30 years. The main difference is that the M&P never had the problem the p320 did with trigger mass. If the P320 was so great then why did special forces go to the Glock 19? Cops are crap with guns, unlike me, a REAL pistolero! Kyle . It has been flawless so far. The linkage isnt, but the way the striker leg and sear face mate up, the two materials being MIM castings, the small camming action, etc. Mine is very accurate. A too light 1911 as some use in competition or God Forbid for carry- could jump the sear if dropped. The pictures on the internet were enough to scare the shit out of you especially his wound in the thigh. Folks disagree on brands. The HK VP70 was made in 1970 when Gaston Glock was making curtain rods. Carrying a handgun in a purse, particularly one that isnt designed specifically to carry a firearm, is problematic at best. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v0LUbLu6TqA, Simply put, the P320 is not safe and the lawsuits arent frivolous. 01:10. Withe the P320 Sigs contract was $169.5 million, $103 million cheaper then Glock. And on the flip side of the coin is the decades of denial by Remington on the 700 which Ive seen firsthand. Sounds like these officers and others are attempting to cover their posteriors. Thats why NY demanded the NY Trigger be installed on Glocks before theyd buy them. To me it was unreal, $600 to ask a question about WOK and a picture. Look a fanboy. Likewise, having a finger in the trigger-guard, or a clothing draw-string, or a retention strap, or some other object, when holstering the gun exonerates the maker, as the gun is firing with a trigger press of sufficient energy and stroke as designed. Jeff Bagnell, a lawyer in Westport, Conn., who has litigated 10 cases, mostly by commercial gun owners, related to SIG P320 misfires across several U.S. states, took note of the accident involving the Canadian special forces soldier. At rest, cocked, it may very well have enough oomph to set some primers off. Whether or not the suits have merit. By hoping Sig gets taken down for the P320, theyre actually setting up their own pet brand to be the next on the chopping block. The company didnt want to comment on any specific pending litigation for obvious reasons. The claim basically boils down to the notion that in normal, unconcerning operation, a foreign body entered the striker body. The current allegations, then, are different, claiming that the P320 is prone to un-commanded discharges.. These cops seem pretty dang stupid if they put loaded guns in gym bags and purses with other stuff and carry them around, especially a gun that lacks manual safeties. The military has found that the pistol has a tendency to eject live rounds among other issues. The SIG P320 has been the subject of numerous lawsuits, including one class action case, in the U.S. over injuries sustained because of accidental discharges. The P320 should be scrapped and SIG Sauer USA should redesign a new pistol around the striker firing mechanism instead of just retrofitting a hammer fired pistol (P250). 00:03. Bineau added the review is looking at so-called ancillary equipment (meaning the holster and other items) as one element of that broader investigation. They mandate more discharges, with more property damage, more injuries, and more deaths. Id read that for TMP, they got NASA to help in the design of the refit Enterprise. Sig P320 is just one of many pistols with Safety related. No autographs, No self taken pictures. BAM. A fine of up to $10,000. Hammer guns have a half cock notch for a reason. The list is long proving gun manufactures were well aware of this problem now for 121 years yet they abandoned this when the Glock infested the gun market. Combine this with the complacency that comes with handling a firearm over-and-over again as you holster and unholster a firearm throughout the day, its not surprising that many of these officers are saying it just went off as a negligent discharge can cost them their job if it lead to serious injury or property damage. Second, every gun maker has made lemons in the past. A few Warbirds decloaking would make me very nervous if it wasnt sci-fi fantasy. All those customers who paid $1600 now had a limited function paper weight. Canadian soldier wounded by accidental discharge used wrong holster: SIG Sauer In the case of the 320, lightning is striking the same place an awful lot. On February 19, 2021, Military.com reported: A former U.S. Marine and federal agent has filed a $10 million lawsuit against Sig Sauer Inc. alleging that his holstered Sig P320 a pistol that the Army's new sidearm is based on accidentally discharged, firing a 9mm bullet into his right leg. Would you? My trust for Sig stopped after they produced the beloved Sig556xi Russian. In June, Cambridge police Lt. Thomas Ahern filed suit, accusing Sig Sauer of selling a dangerously defective product after his P320 fired on its own while he was in the department's SWAT team van with six other officers. You simply may not PREFER one make to another, or may simply dislike another make, but were to the point in semi-auto pistol production history where amongst the big brands, the only real distinctions are preference. Covid ruined that gravy train for him but hes still doing the conventions. Note that Harrisons comment about these claims possibly being the result of legal momentum were edited out of the longer Nightline version of the report. Keep the phrase legal momentum in mind. The cost of settlements will be passed on to us. My dad owned one and that is exactly what happened one time when he was using it. The Defiant regardless of who is the captain. . Its just dumb enough to sound like the plot to a damned Disney film. Again the Far Right Stupidity and hypocrisy is infinite. Had a buddy, years ago, that was a deputy for Orange County in California. The incident with the P320 - a contender for a major Canadian Armed Forces procurement of thousands of pistols and holsters that has a Aug. 3 deadline for industry proposals - occurred at JTF-2's Dwyer Hill training range just west of Ottawa. Not too long after they sold a pistol to the public and United States military thats not even DROP SAFE?!? Zero in the affirmative. Its difficult to believe thats a coincidence. Thread starter ut755ln; Start date Oct 19, 2022; Forums. Miraculously, no one was hit by the bullet, which ricocheted around inside the vehicle. Dont care for them, not my jam. Now when you lose your grip on lawn mowers or snow blowers they will not keep travelling foreword all by themselves. Anyway my question for $600 would be: Did you have your 3rd wife killed? The thing I hate is getting kicked around! Sig Sauer P220 Super Match. TidalWave Professional Aug 25, 2021 #17 Bassbob said: Somehow I seriously doubt the guns just shot themselves. Weird how that might happen. The latest of these suits was filed last week in US District Court in Massachusetts. Remember the stupidity of the far right is infinite and the blind greed of the gun makers prove they could not care less about human life and suffering. BTW it was HK that made the first polymer gun, Glock actually stole the idea for the G17 from them. It was expensive. Its also interesting that theres apparently no corresponding flood of civilian lawsuits against SIG with similar claims of guns going off, even though the public owns far more P320s than do law enforcement agencies. The SIG P320 has been the subject of numerous lawsuits, including one class action case, in the U.S. over injuries sustained because of accidental discharges. Without a loser pays tort system, such abuse will go on and on. Period. Bagnells and other lawsuits ABC claims at least 54 discharges and 10 suits against SIG describe instances of P320s going off dating back to 2016, prior to the upgrade. You did get to sit and watch it with him, which leads to a serious question. But SIG Sauer said it has rectified the issue with upgrades, including one made for the U.S. military which court documents, filed as part of one of the lawsuits, show resulted in substantial changes to the weapons internal design. Funny how that works. Then theres the fact that the branches of the military have put the P320 design through their own batteries of testing and found it duty worthy. I have almost a hatred for Glocks but the one thing that they are is reliable. Sig fanboys are almost as bad as Glock fanboys. SIG just cannot seem to make a striker fired pistol that doesnt have issues. Many gun makers have had issues with drop firing, unintended discharge, bad safeties This is a resource I compiled of semi-auto pistols that have been recalled or Upgraded for Safety related problems like Drop Firing, Safeties that Malfunction, Risk of Accidental Discharge, etc. The Collette suit, for example, lists 39 such discharges, all but five of which involved law enforcement officers. The incidents occur outside the forbidden zone, as we disarm before we enter so we stay in assiduous compliance with their nonsensical requirement. The problem is non-existent. I know there are those who will vehemently disagree with me, and even disparage me but I have been following this issue from early on, BUT I recall CLEARLY that there have been dozens and dozens of discharges that could not be attributed to operator error and people experiencing these uncommanded discharges both before AND after getting the trigger upgrade. As to prong 2, there is a considerable difference between the mechanism of a 320 and, say, ones basic Glock, in that a 320 is fully cocked, whereas a Glock is half-cocked until the trigger is fully depressed, with the striker remaining locked by the striker safety plunger until that is released by a cam on the trigger bar. To make the striker leg pull off of the sear, you would have to impart a lot of rearward momentum and stop it suddenly. A lot like carrying a cocked and locked 1911 but with the safety off. abprototype.com can add the manual safety as well as add the notches in the grip frame. Not only is it now the designated sidearm of all branches of the U.S. military, there are over a million of them in civilian hands. who sells them? Give me a break. So, unlike the Serpa holster debate, Im a believer that there is more going on than meets the eye with the P320 and is exactly why I refrained from buying one, why I still wont own one, and why I steer people away from it. It alleges that Walter Collette, Jr., a police officer with the Somerville (Mass.) Posts: 21156 | Registered: November 05, 2003. When he put his hand on the grip, the weapon fired, according to the lawsuit. Hey, Im glad theres somethings we agree on! Theres also an un-named Texas gun shop manager who says a P320 fired as he cleared the weapon, blowing off one of his fingers. If you want to find the lowest form of life on the planet interview any C.E.O. But hey, in ruthless, lawless, Capitalvania were life is considered cheap and expendable no one gives a shit, especially the Far Right that screams about abortions and then kills off the children that were not aborted with loaded guns laying around the house. SIG doesnt so you get killed by a punk with a Hi Point. There are several stories about her in the news for various no reasons, she must be throwing them out by a dozen. Sig Sauer P320 (Christine Peterson/TNS) February 22, 2021 Ryan Morgan Gunmaker Sig Sauer is facing a new lawsuit from a U.S. federal agent who claims his holstered P320 pistol discharged without him pulling the trigger and struck him in his upper right hip. I dont care about the upgrade that should never happen. How many times did Shatner actually watch it? I lost $200 on a gun that had less then 1000 rounds through it but I could care. Especially since they farm it out to the lowest bidder. I dont own a Glock or a SIG and am not a fanboy of either. RKC, the first time someone presented me with a 1911 whose trigger rivaled my Pythons single action, I started wondering about that. SIG says ABC had intended to include some of those other claims in their reports, but after SIG informed the network of the additional information that was uncovered, those cases werent included in either of the segments. If they recruit smart cops, they wont have cops who will act against their political opponents outside of the constitution. MIM strikers made in India and put into Sigs. Attorney Bagnell held up the law enforcement officers he represents as examples of people who are highly trained in carrying and using firearms. But breaking news here, skippy. Remember also that with a handful of notable exceptions, modern firearms do not just go off, no matter what is later claimed by those who may be held responsible. Profits over reliability and you end up with junk. According to Section 22.05 of the Texas Penal Code, engaging in deadly conduct with a firearm is considered a felony of the third degree. LEO handguns get into struggles, they get laid and rolled on, they get smacked into vehicles/doorways, they get dropped, they get drawn and holstered way more often than their civilian counterparts. Later when he was driving he shifted his weight and this caused the trigger to be pushed back further and it went off and shot him and the bullet then also blew a big hole in the floor board of this truck. If it was so bad, why did the US Marines, who had the Glock, drop it in favor of the carry sized P320, the M18? And those are exactly the kinds of plaintiffs who happen to make up the vast majority of the lawsuits filed against SIG. Theres still the P938 extractors snapping they refuse to acknowledge. And then theres Gunter Walker, a civilian, who says his P320 fired on its ownwhen he placed the weapon down on his nightstand, shooting him through the palm of his left hand.. They habitually use their customers as the product testers by selling what are essentially prototypes while quietly implementing rolling revisions. The Glocks trigger had caught on a fold in the leather holster and it pushed the trigger part way back. Yaaay! The heads up testing was immediately finished the Sig was the winner. Oh, if you another thread reader asking Wheres the Sig/Glock bashing? While we dont have the actual numbers of similar lawsuits filed against other gun makers actually no one individual or organization seems to keep track of these things and gun makers dont want to talk about it it seems highly likely that every major firearm manufacturer gets its share of a regular flow of lawsuits filed by both civilians and LEOs who claim SHAZAM! An x-ray (fluoroscope) of the mechanism in operation could show what, if anything, is happening inside the gun that might prove, or disprove, the contention that the gun is flawed. The cheap seats were $100-$200 and you got to watch Wrath of Khan with Shatner. Where is that defect now? Guess it hasnt dawned on them that: 1. L. LRRifleman . Is it? I carry one in my front pocket routinely. Seems a bit apologetic to me. Then after just three years without telling anyone they stopped all production including extra parts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-ZZ6pynGLM And many departments across the country have had to lower their standards for passing qualifications just to be able to hire on and keep officers.